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赵堡小架 发表于：2006/9/4 10:27:26[table=92%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]
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Author[/td][td=1,1,80%] Topic: test of internal strength skill (Read 3529 times)[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%]Tom
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[/td][td]test of internal strength skill
« on: Aug 29th, 2006, 8:32am »[/td][td]
Quote 
Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]Years ago, ex-forum member Mike Sigman proposed a "teacher test," limited in scope but intended to allow a prospective IMA student to assess a potential teacher"s internal skill.
A few months ago on the e-budo forum, Dan Harden (who posts here as "Bodywork") proposed a series of simple tests to assess someone"s internal strength skill.
"Lets say ..I don"t really care what you "call" what you do.
And...I am not even asking for you to say "what" it is you do.
For a simple test for comparisons; Ground rules. No fighting, no fients, no Waza of any kind.
Can you do this?
Stand in a room and not use any waza, not use your hands, or any offensive techniques and then.....
1. Have a 220 pound man push your chest with one hand in an attempt to push you over.
2. Then two hands as hard as he can
3. Then have him pile drive into you
4. Then even casually.. to severely pull you and push you around while you stand there without moving your feet.
Then
5. Have him push you and -without you moving- you breathe and he starts to collapse downward
6. Do the above with a stick in your hands while he pushes with you not moving
Then
7. Place your hands on his chest and not move you shoulders or body in any discernable way and send them 3-6" with your touch
If you can do that.... these basic things. Then I really don"t care what you "call" it, you"re worth talking to, as you are doing internal skills.
Why do I say that? Internal skills share common structure and methods."
--posted by Dan Harden on the e-budo.com forum on 23 February 2006, [color=#660000]http://www.e-budo.com/forum/printthread.php?t=31125&page=8&pp=15
I like the range of the series of tests outlined by Dan in the list above. I think it takes the seed of the idea Mike had back in the 1990s--of a simple, easily-performed hands-on "test" of internal strength skill--and expands it to include a wider test of internal ability under more "pressure." Dan"s tests don"t "measure" how well a given individual"s internal strength skill would be applied in a fight--only a fight could do that--but they certainly would highlight the internal strength foundation that individual could bring to bear.
Any thoughts on the specific "tests" listed above?
For forum members who may not have heard of or recall Mike"s "teacher test," I"ve copied a post below from the old Neijia e-mail list by Mike, together with some comments by Stephen Chan, that highlight that "test" and what it is intended to show:
"Teacher Test ™
Author Mike Sigman to neijia list 11 Jan 1995
. . .
So NOW we come to the Internal Teacher Test. This test works on the assumption that if a teacher or long-time student has really been practicing or teaching the right stuff for a period of time, then all of the correct training HAS to have developed the ability to generate internal strength. There aren"t 2 different kinds of internal strength, one martial and one for health.... even a health practitioner should be able to do this. And it"s not the best test in the world, but it should give a general idea.
Have the person put the palm of their hand on your upper chest (to one side) or, if you prefer, on your shoulder from the side. Then, ask them to hit you as hard as they can....*without* moving their hand back and without cocking their shoulder (9 out of 10 will use their shoulder, so watch for it).
If they have developed waist power and other skills, they can launch you through the air... if they haven"t, the most they can do is rock you a bit if your stance is fairly stable (get in a good stance). Watch that shoulder, though....it shouldn"t really move.
. . . .
------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Author Stephen Chan to neijia list 16 May 1995
> I have heard about the teacher test here. I even have a general feel for what
> it is, but I couldn"t explain it well enough to him to have it done. Is is
> explained anywhere. If not, could you give me a definition?
The teacher test is basically that someone puts their palm on your shoulder or chest, and they must be able to push you (or hit you if you want to feel that) without using their shoulder. If you see their shoulder withdraw to cock for the push, then they are relying on local musculature.
The push should also feel very clean and free, if it feels as if they are giving you a very dull and plodding push, then they aren"t using peng properly.
This test doesn"t mean that the person is qualified to teach you secret internal Chinese butt-kicking. But it does demonstrate a familiarity with using (as some would say) internal strength parameters.
If you are worried about getting zapped too hard, ask them not to use any bounce jing.
Stephen Chan
------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Author Stephen Chan to neijia list same day again
> The feeling from someone that isn"t so hot at doing this is one of
> being caught in an ocean wave. It lifts you and takes you uncontrollably.
> When someone is really good at this you feel nothing. You just move *like an
> arrow shot from a bow*.
This sounds right, but a certain amount also depends on how you receive the force. If you give them a relatively unitary target to receive the force, then the demonstration will be cleaner - if you are really soft and yielding, they have to zone in one your center before issuing. On the other hand, the good ones can lock onto your center pretty quickly.
> root. Another teacher test is to gently or firmly push on them and see where
> your push goes. If it breaks their balance their skill is not great. If you
> can feel it being channelled into their feet they are getting somewhere
This is a good test if you have developed a certain amount of listening skill yourself, but of you don"t have the ability to figure out where the force is going, it may only serve to confuse things.
Stephen Chan"
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #1 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 8:54am »[/td][td] Quote Modify [/size][/td][/tr][/table]my teacher has had me and 5 of my other classmates try and push him over from the front and side. We were all pushing at the same time. Couldn"t budge him....
Then he stood on one foot just to make us look that much weaker. [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%]Shawn Segler
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #2 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:01am »[/td][td] Quote [color=#660000] Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]Fuck Sigman.
Just sayin.
S [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]Got a lust for life. [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]mawali
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #3 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:02am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]I met Mike Sigman many years ago and found his test to be objective but if applied, many so called "internal" MA teachers would fail it. I say that because the students themselves (in most instances) have no skill and they are the qi huggers that are often frequently talked about therefore no reality to there training.
This is not to deny that many masters have some modicum of skill and that degree is based on the skill of the student or lack thereof. Keep in mind that the mantram of qi is that it works only on the students of the master/teacher! What kind of objective reality is that?
Many masters are great people! [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]Tom
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #4 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:14am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]on Aug 29th, 2006, 9:01am, [color=#660000]Shawn Segler wrote: [table=90%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][font=Arial,Helvetica]Fuck Sigman.
Just sayin.
S [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #5 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:17am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]While both "tests" attempt a reasonable, objective testing scenario to reproduce a good skill, there are many problems with both which make them not nearly as objective.
For example, there are a couple of problems that I see with "Have a 220 pound man push your chest":
1) Why 220 lbs? What if my weight is 120 lbs? What if my weight is 320 lbs? Wouldn"t the results be substantially different?
2) "push" -- as we all know, there are many, many dramatically different ways to "push" which vary greatly in their "feel" and effectiveness depending on the pusher"s general skill, body type/"density", experience, direction/trajectory of the push, etc., etc.
Mike"s test also has a huge objectivity problem in the main "if you see their shoulder withdraw" line. Some people will see it move, others won"t.
My point is that this sort of objectivity in the field of IMA is largely impossible and "tests" like these IMHO should not be taken exactly word for word. I would look at them as a "general guide" rather than a specific exact set of things to do and respective results to expect.
*edit*
And another thing... why "test" one"s "internal strength" at all? To whom would you be trying to prove what, and why? Ego? Lack of self-confidence? IMO you will know what "internal strength" you have (or don"t have) when you touch hands with people, and that"s that. 
Just be honest with yourself, that"s all. If you"re not, then no amount of "tests" will help that...
Anyway, just my 2 unworthy kopeks...
[/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:34am by Dmitri »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]"You live and learn. At any rate, you live."
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #6 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:18am »[/td][td] Quote [color=#660000] Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]I think the tests have some value to them. When I first came to my school my teacher told me to do a few of them on him.
One being trying to push him over. I couldn"t. Even now that i know how to push from the legs I still can"t push him over and I weight over 200 but less than 220.
I have a certain reserves when someone says..... knock him over with your breathe and no movement. To me this is suspect.
I can knock somone back a few feet with small movements.. a few memebers here can contest to that, but with no movement... I dont think so. Not trying to brag just trying prove a point that its a little more that breath.. however, maybe i am not at that level yet that the movements are so small... they are non existant. mmmm i think i just confused myself...
Peace
Tim [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:19am by Tim »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]I hear, I forget
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #7 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:30am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]I love the comments . . . I think they are all valid observations and critiques of the "tests" (which I refer to in quotation marks because of obvious and not-so-obvious limitations).
In general, I like the idea of some kind of simple, easily-performed "baseline" demonstration of internal strength skill that can be given by a teacher or IMA practitioner with anyone. I recognize that there will be limits on reproducibility or on one"s own ability to discern results. Additionally, there is the "wow" factor when the demonstrator"s tester is a student of the demonstrator, or is deliberately "hooked" by the test as often happens with the "unbendable arm" test of ki in Tohei-style aikido and its offshoots ("Wow! My arm is unbendable! I"m gonna sign up to learn this aiki stuff!").
[/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:02am by Tom »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]zhijue yundong zhi lingming [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]MNnMN
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #8 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:33am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]That is a heck of a standard. That is beyond what I would expect of a teacher, and many masters would fail this as well.
The idea of qi working only on students hits something here. Im 5"8, 180#, a former soldier and grappler, and I have met some true masters, and I know that they would fail some of those tests if I was not compliant. I mostly mean the first laundry list there. There are probably only a few masters who ever lived who could do that if everyone is being honest.
The second test is right on. Very simple and very direct:
Testee puts hand on shoulder or chest and pushes. The internal quality shouldnt have the shoulder tense or move. The internal power is measured by the power and effect of the push/strike. This is a good two variable test of internalness and power of the internal.
I would like to add that I would find it more telling to do a test like that on the instructor and the students of various levels. If they dont show a progression, why bother with the place? No matter how masterful someone may be. It does not matter if they cant teach it to others.
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #9 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:37am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]I don"t see the point of doing any tests on the teacher. It"s much better to test the senior students. So what if the teacher"s got power up the wazoo if he can"t teach? [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]1palm
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #10 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:01am »[/td][td] Quote [color=#660000] Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]standing like a mountain is kool and all, but so is moving like a river......why would one allow someone to stand and get purchase on them?.....bagua at least is all about moving.....use the feet to adjust to a force
i get it is a test, but seems very one dimensional to me. [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:05am by 1palm »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]"only a fool thinks more of himself for being loved than for loving" [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]Tom
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #11 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:06am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]on Aug 29th, 2006, 9:37am, [color=#660000]Q wrote: [table=90%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][font=Arial,Helvetica]I don"t see the point of doing any tests on the teacher. It"s much better to test the senior students. So what if the teacher"s got power up the wazoo if he can"t teach? [/font][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
Good point, Mawali. No point in studying with someone if he can"t teach. No point in studying with someone if they can"t demonstrate the skills they purport to teach, either.
As far as "testing" the senior students . . . much depends on their own capacity for learning and diligence in practice. But they "should" be able to demonstrate some modicum of ability with Dan"s tests. [/font][/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]zhijue yundong zhi lingming [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%]Dmitri
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #12 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:07am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]on Aug 29th, 2006, 9:33am, [color=#660000]MNnMN wrote: [table=90%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][font=Arial,Helvetica]The internal quality shouldnt have the shoulder tense or move. The internal power is measured by the power and effect of the push/strike. This is a good two variable test of internalness and power of the internal. [/font][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
I"ve seen it done, by Mike himself, and in one instance where most people didn"t see any shoulder movement, Mike did. So he"s right and the others aren"t? Then how can these others go home and do that test on someone else? Would they be right or wrong in their judgement then?
It"s the judgement of the amount of movement and of how tense the shoulder is, is what"s the problem. That judgement is extremely subjective and will vary dramatically depending on the observer"s skills, sensitivity, amount of attention paid during the test, maybe even his mood, etc., etc.
Great comments otherwise.
[/font][/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:11am by Dmitri »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]"You live and learn. At any rate, you live."
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #13 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:12am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]on Aug 29th, 2006, 10:01am, 1palm wrote: [table=90%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][font=Arial,Helvetica]standing like a mountain is kool and all, but so is moving like a river......why would one allow someone to stand and get purchase on them?.....bagua at least is all about moving.....use the feet to adjust to a force
i get it is a test, but seems very one dimensional to me. [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
Agreed. Neither Dan"s nor Mike"s approaches would be anything more than a very basic/simple "test" of internal strength skill . . . nor were they originally offered as anything more than that. Roushou and moving-step tuishou are interim steps towards assessing "jin in motion," with a full-blown fight being an "ultimate" test of ability to use internal strength skill.
Is there a legitimate place for a basic, simple set of "tests" of jin? I think there is . . . simply to give the beginning to intermediate-level prospective student a hands-on, proprioceptive sense of what he/she would be learning in the long run. Obviously it shows the teacher"s ability, but I think a better training purpose is to indicate to the student what he/she will be developing with proper practice. [/size][/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]zhijue yundong zhi lingming [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%]1palm
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #14 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:16am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]i agree, but see it as somewhat counter productive....it is a sure way to get people "end gainning" reminds me a little of the dynamic push hands bit, if you can do it, it is easy, if not what you will think is the process will only mislead you.....having said that i guess i see it as demonstrable, but not really signifigant of much.....but then again i do not place too much value on the whole immovable root bit......also i do not know if i think it is an indicator of internal skill, may just be structural strength which is a component, but one of many. [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:19am by 1palm »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]"only a fool thinks more of himself for being loved than for loving" [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]Pages: 1 2 3 ... 8[/td][td] Reply Notify of replies [color=#660000] Send Topic[/size] [color=#660000] Print[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
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test of internal strength skill[/td][td]« No topic | Next topic »[/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]Pages: 1 2 3 ... 8[/td][td] Reply Notify of replies [color=#660000] Send Topic [color=#660000] Print[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,1,20%][color=#ffffff] Author[/td][td=1,1,80%] Topic: test of internal strength skill (Read 3529 times)[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%]Tom
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]test of internal strength skill
« on: Aug 29th, 2006, 8:32am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]Years ago, ex-forum member Mike Sigman proposed a "teacher test," limited in scope but intended to allow a prospective IMA student to assess a potential teacher"s internal skill.
A few months ago on the e-budo forum, Dan Harden (who posts here as "Bodywork") proposed a series of simple tests to assess someone"s internal strength skill.
"Lets say ..I don"t really care what you "call" what you do.
And...I am not even asking for you to say "what" it is you do.
For a simple test for comparisons; Ground rules. No fighting, no fients, no Waza of any kind.
Can you do this?
Stand in a room and not use any waza, not use your hands, or any offensive techniques and then.....
1. Have a 220 pound man push your chest with one hand in an attempt to push you over.
2. Then two hands as hard as he can
3. Then have him pile drive into you
4. Then even casually.. to severely pull you and push you around while you stand there without moving your feet.
Then
5. Have him push you and -without you moving- you breathe and he starts to collapse downward
6. Do the above with a stick in your hands while he pushes with you not moving
Then
7. Place your hands on his chest and not move you shoulders or body in any discernable way and send them 3-6" with your touch
If you can do that.... these basic things. Then I really don"t care what you "call" it, you"re worth talking to, as you are doing internal skills.
Why do I say that? Internal skills share common structure and methods."
--posted by Dan Harden on the e-budo.com forum on 23 February 2006, [color=#660000]http://www.e-budo.com/forum/printthread.php?t=31125&page=8&pp=15
I like the range of the series of tests outlined by Dan in the list above. I think it takes the seed of the idea Mike had back in the 1990s--of a simple, easily-performed hands-on "test" of internal strength skill--and expands it to include a wider test of internal ability under more "pressure." Dan"s tests don"t "measure" how well a given individual"s internal strength skill would be applied in a fight--only a fight could do that--but they certainly would highlight the internal strength foundation that individual could bring to bear.
Any thoughts on the specific "tests" listed above?
For forum members who may not have heard of or recall Mike"s "teacher test," I"ve copied a post below from the old Neijia e-mail list by Mike, together with some comments by Stephen Chan, that highlight that "test" and what it is intended to show:
"Teacher Test ™
Author Mike Sigman to neijia list 11 Jan 1995
. . .
So NOW we come to the Internal Teacher Test. This test works on the assumption that if a teacher or long-time student has really been practicing or teaching the right stuff for a period of time, then all of the correct training HAS to have developed the ability to generate internal strength. There aren"t 2 different kinds of internal strength, one martial and one for health.... even a health practitioner should be able to do this. And it"s not the best test in the world, but it should give a general idea.
Have the person put the palm of their hand on your upper chest (to one side) or, if you prefer, on your shoulder from the side. Then, ask them to hit you as hard as they can....*without* moving their hand back and without cocking their shoulder (9 out of 10 will use their shoulder, so watch for it).
If they have developed waist power and other skills, they can launch you through the air... if they haven"t, the most they can do is rock you a bit if your stance is fairly stable (get in a good stance). Watch that shoulder, though....it shouldn"t really move.
. . . .
------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Author Stephen Chan to neijia list 16 May 1995
> I have heard about the teacher test here. I even have a general feel for what
> it is, but I couldn"t explain it well enough to him to have it done. Is is
> explained anywhere. If not, could you give me a definition?
The teacher test is basically that someone puts their palm on your shoulder or chest, and they must be able to push you (or hit you if you want to feel that) without using their shoulder. If you see their shoulder withdraw to cock for the push, then they are relying on local musculature.
The push should also feel very clean and free, if it feels as if they are giving you a very dull and plodding push, then they aren"t using peng properly.
This test doesn"t mean that the person is qualified to teach you secret internal Chinese butt-kicking. But it does demonstrate a familiarity with using (as some would say) internal strength parameters.
If you are worried about getting zapped too hard, ask them not to use any bounce jing.
Stephen Chan
------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Author Stephen Chan to neijia list same day again
> The feeling from someone that isn"t so hot at doing this is one of
> being caught in an ocean wave. It lifts you and takes you uncontrollably.
> When someone is really good at this you feel nothing. You just move *like an
> arrow shot from a bow*.
This sounds right, but a certain amount also depends on how you receive the force. If you give them a relatively unitary target to receive the force, then the demonstration will be cleaner - if you are really soft and yielding, they have to zone in one your center before issuing. On the other hand, the good ones can lock onto your center pretty quickly.
> root. Another teacher test is to gently or firmly push on them and see where
> your push goes. If it breaks their balance their skill is not great. If you
> can feel it being channelled into their feet they are getting somewhere
This is a good test if you have developed a certain amount of listening skill yourself, but of you don"t have the ability to figure out where the force is going, it may only serve to confuse things.
Stephen Chan"
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #1 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 8:54am »[/td][td] Quote Modify [/size][/td][/tr][/table]my teacher has had me and 5 of my other classmates try and push him over from the front and side. We were all pushing at the same time. Couldn"t budge him....
Then he stood on one foot just to make us look that much weaker. [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%]Shawn Segler
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #2 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:01am »[/td][td] Quote [color=#660000] Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]Fuck Sigman.
Just sayin.
S [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]Got a lust for life. [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]mawali
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #3 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:02am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]I met Mike Sigman many years ago and found his test to be objective but if applied, many so called "internal" MA teachers would fail it. I say that because the students themselves (in most instances) have no skill and they are the qi huggers that are often frequently talked about therefore no reality to there training.
This is not to deny that many masters have some modicum of skill and that degree is based on the skill of the student or lack thereof. Keep in mind that the mantram of qi is that it works only on the students of the master/teacher! What kind of objective reality is that?
Many masters are great people! [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]Tom
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #4 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:14am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]on Aug 29th, 2006, 9:01am, [color=#660000]Shawn Segler wrote: [table=90%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][font=Arial,Helvetica]Fuck Sigman.
Just sayin.
S [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #5 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:17am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]While both "tests" attempt a reasonable, objective testing scenario to reproduce a good skill, there are many problems with both which make them not nearly as objective.
For example, there are a couple of problems that I see with "Have a 220 pound man push your chest":
1) Why 220 lbs? What if my weight is 120 lbs? What if my weight is 320 lbs? Wouldn"t the results be substantially different?
2) "push" -- as we all know, there are many, many dramatically different ways to "push" which vary greatly in their "feel" and effectiveness depending on the pusher"s general skill, body type/"density", experience, direction/trajectory of the push, etc., etc.
Mike"s test also has a huge objectivity problem in the main "if you see their shoulder withdraw" line. Some people will see it move, others won"t.
My point is that this sort of objectivity in the field of IMA is largely impossible and "tests" like these IMHO should not be taken exactly word for word. I would look at them as a "general guide" rather than a specific exact set of things to do and respective results to expect.
*edit*
And another thing... why "test" one"s "internal strength" at all? To whom would you be trying to prove what, and why? Ego? Lack of self-confidence? IMO you will know what "internal strength" you have (or don"t have) when you touch hands with people, and that"s that. Just be honest with yourself, that"s all. If you"re not, then no amount of "tests" will help that...
Anyway, just my 2 unworthy kopeks...
[/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:34am by Dmitri »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]"You live and learn. At any rate, you live."
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #6 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:18am »[/td][td] Quote [color=#660000] Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]I think the tests have some value to them. When I first came to my school my teacher told me to do a few of them on him.
One being trying to push him over. I couldn"t. Even now that i know how to push from the legs I still can"t push him over and I weight over 200 but less than 220.
I have a certain reserves when someone says..... knock him over with your breathe and no movement. To me this is suspect.
I can knock somone back a few feet with small movements.. a few memebers here can contest to that, but with no movement... I dont think so. Not trying to brag just trying prove a point that its a little more that breath.. however, maybe i am not at that level yet that the movements are so small... they are non existant. mmmm i think i just confused myself...
Peace
Tim [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:19am by Tim »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]I hear, I forget
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #7 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:30am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]I love the comments . . . I think they are all valid observations and critiques of the "tests" (which I refer to in quotation marks because of obvious and not-so-obvious limitations).
In general, I like the idea of some kind of simple, easily-performed "baseline" demonstration of internal strength skill that can be given by a teacher or IMA practitioner with anyone. I recognize that there will be limits on reproducibility or on one"s own ability to discern results. Additionally, there is the "wow" factor when the demonstrator"s tester is a student of the demonstrator, or is deliberately "hooked" by the test as often happens with the "unbendable arm" test of ki in Tohei-style aikido and its offshoots ("Wow! My arm is unbendable! I"m gonna sign up to learn this aiki stuff!").
[/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:02am by Tom »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]zhijue yundong zhi lingming [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]MNnMN
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #8 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:33am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]That is a heck of a standard. That is beyond what I would expect of a teacher, and many masters would fail this as well.
The idea of qi working only on students hits something here. Im 5"8, 180#, a former soldier and grappler, and I have met some true masters, and I know that they would fail some of those tests if I was not compliant. I mostly mean the first laundry list there. There are probably only a few masters who ever lived who could do that if everyone is being honest.
The second test is right on. Very simple and very direct:
Testee puts hand on shoulder or chest and pushes. The internal quality shouldnt have the shoulder tense or move. The internal power is measured by the power and effect of the push/strike. This is a good two variable test of internalness and power of the internal.
I would like to add that I would find it more telling to do a test like that on the instructor and the students of various levels. If they dont show a progression, why bother with the place? No matter how masterful someone may be. It does not matter if they cant teach it to others.
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #9 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 9:37am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]I don"t see the point of doing any tests on the teacher. It"s much better to test the senior students. So what if the teacher"s got power up the wazoo if he can"t teach? [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]1palm
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #10 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:01am »[/td][td] Quote [color=#660000] Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]standing like a mountain is kool and all, but so is moving like a river......why would one allow someone to stand and get purchase on them?.....bagua at least is all about moving.....use the feet to adjust to a force
i get it is a test, but seems very one dimensional to me. [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:05am by 1palm »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]"only a fool thinks more of himself for being loved than for loving" [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%][color=#660000]Tom
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #11 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:06am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]on Aug 29th, 2006, 9:37am, [color=#660000]Q wrote: [table=90%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][font=Arial,Helvetica]I don"t see the point of doing any tests on the teacher. It"s much better to test the senior students. So what if the teacher"s got power up the wazoo if he can"t teach? [/font][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
Good point, Mawali. No point in studying with someone if he can"t teach. No point in studying with someone if they can"t demonstrate the skills they purport to teach, either.
As far as "testing" the senior students . . . much depends on their own capacity for learning and diligence in practice. But they "should" be able to demonstrate some modicum of ability with Dan"s tests. [/font][/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]zhijue yundong zhi lingming [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%]Dmitri
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #12 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:07am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]on Aug 29th, 2006, 9:33am, [color=#660000]MNnMN wrote: [table=90%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][font=Arial,Helvetica]The internal quality shouldnt have the shoulder tense or move. The internal power is measured by the power and effect of the push/strike. This is a good two variable test of internalness and power of the internal. [/font][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
I"ve seen it done, by Mike himself, and in one instance where most people didn"t see any shoulder movement, Mike did. So he"s right and the others aren"t? Then how can these others go home and do that test on someone else? Would they be right or wrong in their judgement then?
It"s the judgement of the amount of movement and of how tense the shoulder is, is what"s the problem. That judgement is extremely subjective and will vary dramatically depending on the observer"s skills, sensitivity, amount of attention paid during the test, maybe even his mood, etc., etc.
Great comments otherwise.
[/font][/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:11am by Dmitri »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]"You live and learn. At any rate, you live."
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #13 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:12am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]on Aug 29th, 2006, 10:01am, 1palm wrote: [table=90%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][font=Arial,Helvetica]standing like a mountain is kool and all, but so is moving like a river......why would one allow someone to stand and get purchase on them?.....bagua at least is all about moving.....use the feet to adjust to a force
i get it is a test, but seems very one dimensional to me. [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
Agreed. Neither Dan"s nor Mike"s approaches would be anything more than a very basic/simple "test" of internal strength skill . . . nor were they originally offered as anything more than that. Roushou and moving-step tuishou are interim steps towards assessing "jin in motion," with a full-blown fight being an "ultimate" test of ability to use internal strength skill.
Is there a legitimate place for a basic, simple set of "tests" of jin? I think there is . . . simply to give the beginning to intermediate-level prospective student a hands-on, proprioceptive sense of what he/she would be learning in the long run. Obviously it shows the teacher"s ability, but I think a better training purpose is to indicate to the student what he/she will be developing with proper practice. [/size][/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]zhijue yundong zhi lingming [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td=1,2,20%]1palm
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[/td][td=1,1,80%][table=98%][tr][td][/td][td]Re: test of internal strength skill
« Reply #14 on: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:16am »[/td][td] Quote Modify[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table]i agree, but see it as somewhat counter productive....it is a sure way to get people "end gainning" reminds me a little of the dynamic push hands bit, if you can do it, it is easy, if not what you will think is the process will only mislead you.....having said that i guess i see it as demonstrable, but not really signifigant of much.....but then again i do not place too much value on the whole immovable root bit......also i do not know if i think it is an indicator of internal skill, may just be structural strength which is a component, but one of many. [/td][/tr][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]« Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2006, 10:19am by 1palm »[/td][td] Logged[/td][/tr][/table]"only a fool thinks more of himself for being loved than for loving" [/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td][table=98%][tr][td]Pages: 1 2 3 ... 8[/td][td] Reply Notify of replies [color=#660000] Send Topic[/size] [color=#660000] Print[/size] [/size][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table][/td][/tr][/table]
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